Curse

Jeydra · Apr 06, 2009, 10:51 AM // 10:51

@lutz - I'll agree with you that the original PvP / PvE split shouldn't have been done. Hell I remember staying up until 2am the day before the split discussing the change with friends. Even so. There's one major thing you've not noted: it's too late. It's simply too late to go back. There're so many PvP / PvE skill splits now. Some skills even have completely different functionalities in PvP and PvE (eg. Unyielding Aura). If you think you can convince ANet to go back on the split, I'll support you, but I think that's a futile effort.

If we can't have no PvP / PvE skill split, then we ought to concentrate on the positives. The split allows Izzy / ANet / whoever is doing the balancing to introduce balance for both sides. Some skills are overpowered in PvP but hardly matter in PvE - Lingering Curse is one such example when most mobs do not have strong heals. Other skills are overpowered in PvE but don't matter in PvP - eg, Assassin's Promise. Those should be separately balanced. Right now every single PvE skill is superior to its PvP counterpart, which obviously isn't fair. If you've seen some of my other posts you'll notice I support nerfing Assassin's Promise for PvE and buffing it for PvP.

If there were no PvP / PvE skill split I'd definitely support nerfing Lingering Curse. Like it or not though, there is a split, and it's too late to go back, and I don't see a reason not to exploit it being there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynic

Jeydra, would you care to comment on your LC necro's energy requirements? How much would a modest increase in casting cost affect your build?

I don't know. I don't play the Necro, and I'm not so good as to monitor all my heroes at the same time. Only way to tell for sure is to have the nerf happen and then look at the results.

lutz · Apr 06, 2009, 09:41 PM // 21:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

@lutz - I'll agree with you that the original PvP / PvE split shouldn't have been done. Hell I remember staying up until 2am the day before the split discussing the change with friends. Even so. There's one major thing you've not noted: it's too late. It's simply too late to go back. There're so many PvP / PvE skill splits now. Some skills even have completely different functionalities in PvP and PvE (eg. Unyielding Aura). If you think you can convince ANet to go back on the split, I'll support you, but I think that's a futile effort.

If we can't have no PvP / PvE skill split, then we ought to concentrate on the positives. The split allows Izzy / ANet / whoever is doing the balancing to introduce balance for both sides. Some skills are overpowered in PvP but hardly matter in PvE - Lingering Curse is one such example when most mobs do not have strong heals. Other skills are overpowered in PvE but don't matter in PvP - eg, Assassin's Promise. Those should be separately balanced. Right now every single PvE skill is superior to its PvP counterpart, which obviously isn't fair. If you've seen some of my other posts you'll notice I support nerfing Assassin's Promise for PvE and buffing it for PvP.

If there were no PvP / PvE skill split I'd definitely support nerfing Lingering Curse. Like it or not though, there is a split, and it's too late to go back, and I don't see a reason not to exploit it being there.

I don't know. I don't play the Necro, and I'm not so good as to monitor all my heroes at the same time. Only way to tell for sure is to have the nerf happen and then look at the results.

There is a going back: limiting the number of PvE/PvP split skills.

There is no strong reason for Lingering Curse to stay in the PvE scene. Unfortunately, Izzy is retarded and also made PvP versions of Sloth Hunter's Shot, Expert's Dexterity, Read the Wind, and several other skills that didn't need to be split. The only skills, really, that warranted PvE versions were probably Aegis, Ether Renewal, Ancestors' Rage, and Smiter's Boon.

To put it short: if you don't need to, don't, because the less you have, the better.

draxynnic · Apr 07, 2009, 04:45 AM // 04:45

They were effectively two games in one to begin with - even with the same skills, the challenges and conditions presented by PvE are just so different to those in PvP that it's almost silly to try to keep one section of the game identical despite the huge differences in other aspects of the two sides. I'd prefer that PvE was closer to PvP too, but that includes the behaviour and capabilities of the monsters as well as the players. When the monsters are so different in behaviour to players that tactics that would be useful against players are useless against monsters and vice versa, there isn't really much point trying to keep the skills identical.

It's better for a skill to be similar but different than to just be never used in one side of the game. If it salves your PvPer pride, you can think of buffed PvE skills as a form of 'training wheels'. Lingering Curse being powerful enough to be viable (and while I can understand the logic behind your 'viable = overpowered' comment, the truth is part of what makes a skill viable is how it stacks up to the competition. That said, there's a lot of stuff that could stand to be taken down a peg or two, including the Shadow Form just-a-little-bit-too-ubiquitous-in-PvE Assassin's Promise... as much as it would kill one of the few top-tier Mesmer-primary builds) means that if a player then transitions to PvP, they are aware of it is a means of reducing healing and can understand that it is weaker due to having a bigger impact in that environment - rather than the skill being off the radar.

To be honest, though, as I've already said, one of the consequences of the environments being different as that Necromancer skills are probably the easiest to balance for both without splitting, as the greater frequency of deaths in PvE means that PvP necros are more sensitive to energy costs than their PvE counterparts.

lutz · Apr 07, 2009, 04:47 AM // 04:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

It's better for a skill to be similar but different than to just be never used in one side of the game.

I laughed and stopped reading right there.
You clearly have no sense of continuity.

If you want overpowered skills, use the PvE skills. The original set of skills shouldn't be overpowered just because it's PvE.
Maybe it'll encourage people to play with actual players? Oh shit, I never thought of that!

draxynnic · Apr 07, 2009, 04:51 AM // 04:51

Interesting. You wriggle out of posting an explanation by claiming I wouldn't read it, then... post specifically to say you're not reading a follow-up post.

Clearly, you're assuming other people behave as you do.

lutz · Apr 07, 2009, 05:05 AM // 05:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Interesting. You wriggle out of posting an explanation by claiming I wouldn't read it, then... post specifically to say you're not reading a follow-up post.

Clearly, you're assuming other people behave as you do.

If you don't know what you are talking about, don't post. That's typically the rule for most forums. (This means: you really shouldn't post, in case you didn't get the hint.)

You have your "training wheels" already. They are called PvE skills that give you +100 armor, +% damage increases, 100 armor-ignoring AOE damage on a 10 second recharge, etc. The core set of skills, for the most part, should not be adjusted to become these "PvE skills" just because they would become "weaker" in PvE. What this results in is an encouragement of skill usage purely for a linearly-defined effect rather than finding ways to explore skills and effects in multiple directions. What does this mean? It encourages you to suck at the game. A game that was originally based on skill (see: the level cap at 20) is now based on the acquisition of imbalanced skills which, essentially, might as well be "new levels".

Shifting gameplay is now uncommon as the primary usage of skills is the only usage of skills seen nowadays. Now, it's modifying skill bars instead of modifying gameplay. This happened when PvE-only skills were introduced, but with the PvE/PvP skill split, it's even more evident that it promoted build wars and just plowing through because of builds consisting entirely of niche/overpowered skills rather than proper usage of more balanced skills with splashes of niche skills.

Just so you know: Elite doesn't mean imbalanced. Just because something is elite doesn't mean it should be imbalanced. I'm sorry you have an extra chromosome on that 23rd pair of yours.

draxynnic · Apr 07, 2009, 05:17 AM // 05:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

You have your "training wheels" already. They are called PvE skills that give you +100 armor, +% damage increases, 100 armor-ignoring AOE damage on a 10 second recharge, etc.

See, those do create a barrier, as they get people used to skills and capabilities that simply don't exist in the other side of the game, rather than skills that do exist but with tweaks to keep them at a balanced level against the conditions of both parts of the game. Unlike a split skill, experience with a PvE-only skill can never be applied to PvP. With a split skill, however, you just need to adjust to the differences...but you'll also know that the differences are there because the skill is comparatively more powerful in PvP. (Or comparatively less powerful, if we consider the possibility of Assassin's Promise being split the other way.)

Your way, however, simply results in a subset of skills that are PvP-only in all but name. To my eye, this raises the barrier rather than lowering it.

lutz · Apr 07, 2009, 08:24 AM // 08:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

See, those do create a barrier, as they get people used to skills and capabilities that simply don't exist in the other side of the game, rather than skills that do exist but with tweaks to keep them at a balanced level against the conditions of both parts of the game. Unlike a split skill, experience with a PvE-only skill can never be applied to PvP. With a split skill, however, you just need to adjust to the differences...but you'll also know that the differences are there because the skill is comparatively more powerful in PvP. (Or comparatively less powerful, if we consider the possibility of Assassin's Promise being split the other way.)

Your way, however, simply results in a subset of skills that are PvP-only in all but name. To my eye, this raises the barrier rather than lowering it.

No. I want a set of skills that are consistent throughout PvE and PvP. I don't care about the addition of PvE-only skills.

They are not "PvP". They are "universal skills". However, skills should be balanced with PvP in far greater consideration than PvE (say, 80% PvP consideration), because PvE can only be balanced or overpowered; it can never really be underbalanced unless the AI improves drastically, or monster stats are thrown absolutely out of proportion (which, still, is simple to fix - changes to numbers on monsters).

DarkNecrid · Apr 07, 2009, 10:03 AM // 10:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anon-e-mouse

Perhaps, just perhaps A-net realised a while back that the player base *IS* split amongst those who PvE and those who PvP. Skills that are over-powered in one enviroment are not necessarily over-powered in the other.

I'll give you this, there are more overpowered skills in PvE that aren't overpowered in PvP because they are PvE-only, otherwise the other skills are still overpowered because they either restrict skill choice, outperform other skills, or are in general imbalanced. No matter which way you slice it, lingering curse is still very cheap degeneration that outdoes any other degen skill in the game in degen per cost + the benefit of a long range hex deep wound effect.

Quote:

Perhaps even, A-net realised that there are more PvE'rs than PvP'rs and tailored the game to suit them.

A lot of good that did them considering tons of PvP players quit the game entirely. PvP has the one benefit of being infinite content generation, so in the long run it is actually cheaper for arenanet to geT MORE people playing PvP.

Also just because there is more of something doing X doesn't mean you should suit them. Suiting the majority is usually bad, if we suited the majority of the world (stupid people), the world would be worse. Likewise, suiting one game type because it is the majority is incredibly dumb. Suit both, give PvE content and give PvP skill balances, huzzah!

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But one thing that should never EVER happen is a skill gets nerfed in one enviroment PURELY because the OTHER enviroments players 'say' it's overpowered. There is a reason the skills were split.

Yeah the reason the skills were split is so nothing ever needs to be balanced in PvE ever again. They've made exactly 2 nerfs to PvE: Ursan and Shadow Form. If you think those are the only issues in PvE then idk what to tell you. They won't ever balance the overpowered stuff in PvE because every time they did that before, people complained endlessly. Every PvE version of every skill that is split is stronger, and that will always be the case. They are there so nothing gets nerfed in PvE, and thus it can never be balanced (which is a shame).

Secondly, nothing in this game has ever been nerfed because a player "says" it is overpowered, and if you (or anyone else) honestly thinks this, then idk what to tell you. They might check out skill power based on player input, but they aren't going to nerf anything because "well jeez, Polly from rebel rising says Blinding surge owns him too hard, we better nerf it RIGHT NOW", they check into it, discuss it, etc. If they do nerf it, guess what, it was probably overpowered. There is tons of people telling them about overpowered shit often and they haven't done anything about it because they don't agree or are still discussing it or whatever, thinking they change stuff because some fans "QQ" is one of the dumbest things ever because no serious company would ever do this without a long dicussion or evaluation.

Surprise, people have opinions on what is overpowered! Surprise, players are generally right and the company agrees! If you didn't expect your skills to change, don't play an online game where le gasp, skill balances are bound to happen.

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A lot of PvP'rs complain that PvE is 'too easy'. And do you know WHY it's so 'easy'?

Heroes with broken AI that can outperform players, consumables that give you tons of buffs, PvE skills that can give your whole party 98% damage reduction ["save yourselves!"]["there's nothing to fear!"], insane AOE damage output [cry of pain][hundred blades][whirlwind attack][mark of pain], PvE-only skills that let you throw out free 250 hp instant cast instant recharge heals on the whole party alongside infinite prots to guarantee God Mode [ether renewal], provide amazingly strong smiting power + healing [smiter's boon], exploitable AI that gets wrecked by a few skills in HM....

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It's precisely for this reason that some skills got split into PvE/PvP versions, and long may it continue.

Yes, long may PvE never actually get any balance, good thing they put in that skill split system so that our skills never actually get balanced and will continue to never get nerfed. Thank you Anet, btw, could you please buff Signet of Ghostly Might, I don't quite like the nerf you did to it because it ruined the Guild Ladder and some people said it might be overpowered, it's just instant death, so who cares..

Instead of blaming one side of the community for everything, realize there's more to it than just some people QQing and ArenaNet giving in, and realize that there's problems on both sides and ostricizing one part of the community doesn't help either community.

Jeydra · Apr 07, 2009, 10:07 AM // 10:07

@draxynic - it's pretty obvious lutz is arguing for the sake of it. It's either that or he's arguing for the sake of proving how much better PvP players are at PvE than PvE players (just see how many references he's already made at your intelligence). Save your breath, imho.

@lutz - if you want to prove your point, post a screenshot of you doing Duncan HM H/H with all the imbalanced PvE skills at your disposal. If getting to Duncan takes too long, I'll be happy to look at one of Vloxen's HM too. Also, I'd appreciate it if you started your own thread discussing the validity of the PvE / PvP skill split. If you'd rather not do either, that's fine with me, I'll just stop responding to all your posts in this thread.

Archress Shayleigh · Apr 07, 2009, 06:10 PM // 18:10

blah bull... No CHANCE they'll nerf it for PvE. Don't worry. I mean, it's not used for farming, is it? so no worries m8!

draxynnic · Apr 08, 2009, 02:49 AM // 02:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

No. I want a set of skills that are consistent throughout PvE and PvP.

Which, when balancing is usually only performed according to PvP concerns, leads to an ever-increasing number of skills that are only useful in PvP.

Consider one of the skills you cited as not needing a split: Read the Wind. Its PvE form is already facing competition from Expert Focus, while i's PvP form only provides one benefit: Faster arrows. For which you are 'paying' a skill slot, your preparation, and 2 seconds out of every 24 applying it. (And a little bit of energy, but with Expertise, that's practically nothing.)

Now, I don't know if that's worth it in PvP, but in PvE? Yeah, it can be annoying when an arrow gets dodged, but it's not like the AI dodges on purpose. Just wait until after that initial pull during which the AI can behave a little erratically before using skills. It might be annoying when the flight time of an interrupt shot hits just a little too late, but that doesn't happen all that often and, because the AI doesn't dodge, it's that much easier to drop a Broad Head Arrow (which, incidentally, is not significantly affected in flight time by Read the Wind) on them and not have to worry so much about interrupt timing. In its current form, the speed increase of PvE Read the Wind, coupled with a similar damage increase, is enough to keep it competitive with Expert Focus unless a build is relying on the extra energy cost reduction. If Read the Wind had its current PvP effect in PvE, it would probably disappear from PvE altogether.

To make a closing statement, because I really don't want to waste any more time with a debating partner who is looking more and more trollish as time goes on: Ideally, the PvE environment would be similar enough to the PvP environment that what works in one environment would work in another and a split wouldn't be necessary. However, that is not what we have - the truth is that the environments are different enough that a skill that is overpowered in one may be a niche or underpowered skill in another. This being the case, the long-term result of not having a split is that more and more skills, some borderline underpowered to begin with, have become uncompetitive in PvE due to PvP nerfs, impoverishing that side of the game almost as much as if the skills in question had been removed from PvE entirely. Such a result creates at least as much of a barrier in switching from PvE to PvP as splitting the skill does, as the player is forced to adjust to a completely unfamiliar skill instead of adjusting to the differences versus a familiar one. (For completeness, it should be said that PvE-only skills creates a similar barrier, as the player must than adjust to the lack of those skills (instead of to the difference between those skills.))

For most intents and purposes, we had a split anyway. With identical skills, we had some that were (and, mostly, still are) only really useful in PvE, skills that were useful in both, and skills that were only useful in PvP due to PvP-oriented nerfs. By splitting, we can recover for one environment the skills that were relegated to the other without returning them to a state of overpoweredness in the environment that lead to the nerfing in the first place.

This does not, however, excuse ANet from balancing both sides of the game. Problems in PvE balance that have arisen from the split (Shadow Form, overpowered PvE skills) arise from the implementation of the concept of a split, not from the idea itself. Implemented well, a split in principle allows for skills in both sides of the game to be balanced according to the conditions in that side of the game, a state of affairs which cannot be achieved by attempting to balance an identical set of skills within both environments.

In fact, it is possible that PvP has benefited from the split, as it means that ANet may no longer be being held back from PvP balance changes by concerns over the effect in PvE.

Neponde Benito · Apr 12, 2009, 08:33 PM // 20:33

Both sides have a point. The split does benefit both for different reasons, but it is also takes away from the spirit of the game. Personally i think PvE went out the window as soon as EOTN came out, there are just too many skills in the game now to keep things balanced. PvE will NEVER be balanced again. There are too many 'Gimmicks' as people say. I am both a PvPer and a PvEer, they both have their merits. While I am fully capable of doing "gimmick" runs through places, for example Underworld and FoW speedclears, those are all well and good. But I also do enjoy getting my guild together with 8 people in a balanced team and fighting my way through those hard places. A HM UW run with a normal team might take four hours, but if every single one of those 8 people enjoy those four hours, why not?
The PvE/PvP skill split overall has proved to be positive. And yes Anet should continue balancing the PvP side, and fixing blatant broken skills on the PvE side. But my point is, there is just far too much happening in the PvE side to completely rebalance it, they would have to redo the entire game system to fix the damages. (GW2 anyone?). However the PvP changes are proving to be beneficial, for example I am a Monk for the most part, and lingering curse is a total bitch when I'm the healer in an RA group for example, a necro brings lingering curse along, and then a hammer warrior jumps in too. My entire party gets lingering cursed, i get knocked down consistently by this annoying hammer warrior, bam my party is screwed. While this skill is pretty imbalanced from a PvP point of view, its not really imbalanced from a PvE point of view. If it's not broken, why fix it? Fix the PvP side and not the PvE side, this is a case where a split is warranted. Not all cases are such however, so not every single skill in the game needs a split.
As for the stab at the way Jeydra chooses to play the game, that is totally not needed. As previously mentioned above, Yes i can do gimmicks to clear hard areas such as the underworld, and yes it has earned me a fortune. But it does get old after a while, and I enjoy doing stuff without those 'gimmicks'. So does Jeydra from the look of things, why not let him play the way he chooses instead of criticizing him for not doing things the 'perfect way'?
Summary:
-PvE has changed too much to ever be balanced again
-PvP should continue to be changed, and if a skill warrents a split then by all means split it
-not everything has to be done the "perfect way"
-not everything has to be done the "Oldschool way"